The Debate

I thought I should clear this up because when Robert posted the thingy on facebook telling us to knock it off and apologizing to Dan, it started to occur to me that this whole rediculous thing might be getting taken seriously...which is...you know. RIDICULOUS. I haven't felt like Travis was getting upset? I think it's a lively discussion to be sure, but c'mon now. It's a role playing game! We know better. Travis and I are both invested in our characters, so we wanna take care of them and stand up for them. Out of character I can say this on the whole subject: that Lyder's fall was planned and discussed (because Episode III was about to come out and I wanted to go the whole Anikan route...very fan boy of me), and that the break up was a great piece of the story. The whole thing was a great commentary on the tragic nature of love: that sometimes even when you do something for the one person you love more than anything, what you do and how you do it can push them away.

So far as I can tell, Travis understands this and Zak finds it all funny. Robert I'm not so sure about and when I became unsure of Robert I became unsure about the whole thing because I thought this was pretty much an unspoken understanding.

I'll also say that I do miss the great scenes that Travis and I played out with Lyder and Narunna *sniff*. But that's what makes it that much better! Honestly it's the best rp interaction I've ever had and it's just another thing that made this game my all time favorite...followed closely by the short lived Buffy game (moment of silence).

The chat about this whole thing, ooc, is just part of the fun. I think I can assure Dan and Robert, that everything is cool. This is just the level we take our games to. Now I'm really looking forward to what happens next. I'm catching Lyder up. 7 years is a long time! Writing what happened to him after he left, how he dealt with it all, what he learned and how he got by will be a lot of fun. People change and move on, people grow. So lets all tell the next chapter yeah?

Honestly, I just wanted it moved off of Facebook and onto the forum so I could keep tabs on the "neverending battle" without it clogging up my Facebook messages. Now that my ulterior motive stands revealed, I'll have to destroy you all!!!

*cough* Or not. Anyway...

As Jace, he probably would have taken that exact stance on the whole thing if it comes to light again. "C'mon, guys, it's been 7 years! Kiss and make up, already, or get over it! Sheesh!"

Well said, Eric, and a nice way to wrap it up....except that I can't keep my mouth shut and I HAVE to respond to the last couple of messages sent on FB...lol.

Okay, first of all, I don't think anyone is taking it personally. It's a hot-button issue in this group, but it's like arguing politics. You can get impassioned about a topic without thinking your buddy who's arguing with you is a bad person. And let's face it, this topic is an elephant in the room and will be until we come to some sort of understanding. But hey, this storyline, more than any other game we've played, has always been about the drama between the PCs (unlike other games where it's more between PC and NPC). So...ship meeting!! :-D

Now for the FB stuff:

"Asking Jo for advice is like asking...IS ASKING a crazy Drunk for advice. So that's not gonna help you here Mister."
True. But then the same could be said about him taking your side now. What does that say about your standpoint if Jo'luk agrees with you? (haha)

"Scared of BECOMING a dark jedi more like."
Now see, here's a problem with Lyder's perception of what the crew thinks of him. As players we all understand what Lyder went through. But as characters we really only have a vague understanding. Lyder never really sat down and explained it to everyone (including Narruna), so everyone is still scared of him. Everyone thinks he could relapse at any time, so everyone is on eggshells with him. No one understands the distinction between BEING a dark jedi and BECOMING one. That's the core of why Narruna broke up with him. All she knows is that he's told her that on more than one occasion she was the trigger. It's like a drug addict telling his girlfriend that she's the reason he's using. Why would she stay with him if it causes destructive behavior? Now, as a player, I have a certain understanding of why Lyder teetered toward the dark side and, more importantly, why he continued to do it, even when Narruna was out of danger. But Narruna doesn't know this. He never told her. He just expected her to run right back into his arms with minimal explanation, while all she can see is that her love turns him into a monster.

"because you realize you hate your ex for her 4 second turn over rate in which a she got over what was to be a future marriage to you, a guy who lost his way because of the seductive nature of the dark forces he was channeling to SAVE HER LIFE."
Okay, again, see, he's blaming her for his turn to the dark side. He did it all for her, she's to blame. No taking responsibility for his own actions. That's why she had to leave him! How is she supposed to spend her life with a man who blames her for his downfall? Which is not a fair burden to place on her, I might add.

Okay, but let's go back to the "4 second turn over rate" thing. Just to get this clear, it wasn't 4 seconds, it was well over a month after the breakup that the Zeltros incident happened. Too soon? Probably, but that leads me to her motivation, which I think is the biggest misunderstanding of the game. What I keep hearing is that Narruna got over Lyder with a snap of her fingers, went to Zeltros and fell in love with her new Zeltron boyfriend, and then maliciously paraded him around in front of Lyder to hurt him. And that's not what happened. Narruna was nowhere near being over Lyder. She was in more pain than she'd ever been in. So, like an alcoholic turning to drink, or a drug user turning to his next fix, Narruna turned to the thing that she knew best--sex. Narruna's whole life was sex, from a very young age. Sex slave, prostitute, stripper, and then into a very sexual relationship with Lyder. So is it any wonder that at her lowest low she turned to what she thought would comfort her? It wasn't because she was over Lyder, it was because she was trying to deal with her pain. And she never fell in love with the Zeltron, I have no idea where that came from. It was a weekend fling. (By the way, despite Jo thinking her toning down her sexuality was to punish him, it was actually like an alcoholic going sober, trying to turn her back on a destructive crutch and focus on the things that were important to her, like the search for her siblings and fighting slavery) And as for flaunting him in front of Lyder, Lyder wasn't even supposed to find out. He wasn't there, and when he showed up unannounced, she stashed the guy, partly to keep from hurting Lyder, and partly to keep Lyder from hurting the guy (in case it made him go dark side again). But then when Lyder showed up with his date (as a player I know he wasn't really into her, that Chris sort of shoved her in there, but I'm just saying what Narruna thought), she figured that if Lyder thought it was okay to move on, then so could she. It wasn't malicious, it was just trying to figure out what the new rules were. So all of this painting Narruna as a cold heartless bitch isn't true or fair, and demonstrates a lack of ability to see things from her side. I know you could throw the argument back at me that she never actually TOLD Lyder any of this so how could he be understanding? But, in fairness to Narruna, she never got the opportunity to explain it to him because he disappeared before they could clear things up (just leaving behind his F-U gift to her). And more importantly, I feel like this misunderstanding comes from the players as well as the characters.

"Where's the SYMPATHY that's all I'm sayin'."
I guess just refer to my earlier statements about Lyder blaming Narruna. How is she supposed to be like, "Poor thing, you're my hero!" when he's standing there saying "It's all your fault."? And she did sympathize with him, like you'd sympathize with a drug user trying to kick his addiction. But he told her that she was the cause of his addiction. He went to the dark side to protect her, and so she broke off their relationship to protect him (and her and the rest of the crew for that matter), despite it breaking her heart. And she was vilified for it. So where's the sympathy for her?:-P

Quick note to Zak, regarding Jo's statement, "Floozies are the answer."
Exactly! Why do you think she went for some random sabbacc dealer? She wasn't looking for a new love, she just wanted a quick pick-me-up. Why does everyone keep acting like she was trying to get this guy to marry her?

Okay, to sum up: Lyder and Narruna were never meant to be together, despite their best efforts. It's not that either of them was a bad person, they just had completely separate destinies. Unfortunately, they were unwilling to admit it to themselves, which led to both of them making promises they couldn't keep, and therefore both felt betrayed. Everything that happened after the break-up was really just a series of very bad misunderstandings and misinterpretations, and two people not on their best behavior because of broken hearts. My hope in hashing this out is just to clear up misunderstandings between the players. Not that anyone is taking it personally or anything, but I don't see how the characters can ever come to terms with what happened if we can't. For THEIR sake we have to clear the air...lol.

Well, I'm convinced.

Let's go shoot stuff, make money, drink heartily and get us some dames, just like the good old days!

Jo'luk wrote:

Well, I'm convinced.

Let's go shoot stuff, make money, drink heartily and get us some dames, just like the good old days!

This statement wins the Jace Colton seal of approval. Let the good times roll!

It just occurred to me what part of the player misunderstanding might be deriving from, and that's that you, Eric, weren't present for two of the three games in which Narruna's whole emotional breakdown played out, so you didn't get to see, as a player, the game leading up to her decision to have the fling, nor the game where she dealt with the fallout. I think you were working those nights or something. Anyway, you only saw the game where she was with the guy. In the game after that, she continued her downward slide and really hit rock bottom. It was Master Shar who finally snapped her out of it, and by the time Lyder came back she had pulled herself back together again. Of course certain people said she was acting like Sei during her breakdown, so I guess there was really no way for her to win. She was labeled a bitch if she didn't act like she was upset about the breakup, but then she was a crazy bitch if she showed how upset she really was. Not that I really wanted to roleplay a "Sei moment," but it was really what the character had to go through, if I was being honest to her. Anyway, my point is that obviously Lyder would not have been witness to any of this, so I can see how he would just see her with the guy and leap to conclusions. But I just realized that you didn't see any of it either, which is probably why there's a lot of player confusion and it looks to you like she (and I) just dismissed the whole relationship. Do you think?

Narruna wrote:

"Asking Jo for advice is like asking...IS ASKING a crazy Drunk for advice. So that's not gonna help you here Mister."
True. But then the same could be said about him taking your side now. What does that say about your standpoint if Jo'luk agrees with you? (haha)

Agreed. Let's eliminate Jo from this picture. Literally. *draws his saber*

Narruna wrote:

Scared of BECOMING a dark jedi more like.
Now see, here's a problem with Lyder's perception of what the crew thinks of him. As players we all understand what Lyder went through. But as characters we really only have a vague understanding. Lyder never really sat down and explained it to everyone (including Narruna), so everyone is still scared of him. Everyone thinks he could relapse at any time, so everyone is on eggshells with him. No one understands the distinction between BEING a dark jedi and BECOMING one. That's the core of why Narruna broke up with him. All she knows is that he's told her that on more than one occasion she was the trigger. It's like a drug addict telling his girlfriend that she's the reason he's using. Why would she stay with him if it causes destructive behavior? Now, as a player, I have a certain understanding of why Lyder teetered toward the dark side and, more importantly, why he continued to do it, even when Narruna was out of danger. But Narruna doesn't know this. He never told her. He just expected her to run right back into his arms with minimal explanation, while all she can see is that her love turns him into a monster.

Yeah as a player I totally agree with all this! We are on the same page, this is why I enjoy the story so much, because of our ability to keep stuff ooc that should be. I LOVE that the miscommunication was set up the way it was, because for my character, it becomes a huge ordeal to start realizing that beign Force Sensitive is a unique experience. It's never even occured to Lyder that you guys wouldn't understand, or wouldn't just KNOW what it was like and why. And I love that because it means when he learns to face his anger and what happened, he's going to realize that HE was the fool and that the love is still there. It's a juicy opportunity for rp and character growth

Narruna wrote:

"because you realize you hate your ex for her 4 second turn over rate in which a she got over what was to be a future marriage to you, a guy who lost his way because of the seductive nature of the dark forces he was channeling to SAVE HER LIFE."
Okay, again, see, he's blaming her for his turn to the dark side. He did it all for her, she's to blame. No taking responsibility for his own actions. That's why she had to leave him! How is she supposed to spend her life with a man who blames her for his downfall? Which is not a fair burden to place on her, I might add.

Hah! yes yes, but understand I was saying that as a way of firing back at you for the vilification of Lyder in your first FB response, painting Narruna out to be the victim of an emotionally manipulative boyfriend or something. Lyder has never blamed Narruna for his fall. Not once and don't even try and say he did! When he said Narruna was a Trigger, he was saying that she was the flame on the powder keg. That doesn't make it her fault. He has never ever ever ever blamed her and that may be how it played out in game but it makes no sense at all for him to. When I decided that would be the direction of the character, the idea was to play an anti-hero a bit then bring Lyder back to the way he was all the Wiser for the experience. And that's it, he ALWAYS held himself accountable. But it's like asking a person "Who shot this man?" and a witness replies, "The Gun!". Narruna was the Trigger because Narruna is his weak spot. It wasn't a casting of blame, it was an admission of vulnerablility to do WHATEVER it took, smack down whoever got in his way, to save Narruna. Because he loved her and because he had the power to crush the poor son of a bitch that tried to take her away. It's not that he didn't take responsibility for his actions, it's that he couldn't understand why Narruna would abandon him when he needed her most, when he was at his lowest, when he was most vulnerable. And that made him pretty pissed off. Then Mr. Zeltron comes along and Lyder knows it's time to bail before he DOES have a relapse. If that's not taking responsibility then what the heck is?

Narruna wrote:

Okay, but let's go back to the "4 second turn over rate" thing. Just to get this clear, it wasn't 4 seconds, it was well over a month after the breakup that the Zeltros incident happened.

Obviously I was exaggerating here. The purpose of the exaggeration was to contrast a quick turn over. A few years hopping through space with your lover, of whom you will be marrying...then a month after the relationships disenchantment and Narruna is sitting on the lap of some guy in a casino. I wasn't under the impresion Narruna got over Lyder, but Lyder sure as hell was under the impression that Narruna was in serious need of some lessons in sensitivity. The only thing he could assume was that she was doing it to hurt him some how...or maybe she never cared as much as he did?

Now I wanna point something out here! Because you have started in on Narruna's life and how she turns to sex to subdue her pain.. I love that, that's fantastic character integrity. That's staying true to character history and it makes it all the more rich...making me kinda PISSED AT YOU TRAVIS because you never RP WITH US ANYMORE AND I MISS THIS GOD DAMN IT. But back to my point...

Narruna wrote:

She was in more pain than she'd ever been in. So, like an alcoholic turning to drink, or a drug user turning to his next fix, Narruna turned to the thing that she knew best--sex. Narruna's whole life was sex, from a very young age. Sex slave, prostitute, stripper, and then into a very sexual relationship with Lyder. So is it any wonder that at her lowest low she turned to what she thought would comfort her?

You mentioned how Lyder never really discussed his fall with anyone, that no one could understand what he was going through. PRESTO! Here's where Narruna is totally guilty of the same behavior. To Lyder, it looked like she was either a) trying to hurt him or b) never really gave a damn in the first place. Obviously that wasn't the case, but think of it. Lyder comes back recovering from his ordeal with the Sith holocron. An ordeal that almost killed him. He is hoping he can start the process of healing with his closest friends and maybe salvage a friendship, if nothing else, with the woman he loves. But the next time he sees her, she is casual, nonchalant and in the arms of another man. Ouch.


...Oh damn I just read ahead where you mentioned I could make this argument. Ah well. And it wasn't an F-U gift haha! Lyder realized his deep attachment to Narruna was still a place of vulnerability and it was "clear" to him that Narruna had moved on when he hadn't. He thought he was doing the right thing.

Narruna wrote:

"Where's the SYMPATHY that's all I'm sayin'."
I guess just refer to my earlier statements about Lyder blaming Narruna. How is she supposed to be like, "Poor thing, you're my hero!" when he's standing there saying "It's all your fault."? And she did sympathize with him, like you'd sympathize with a drug user trying to kick his addiction. But he told her that she was the cause of his addiction. He went to the dark side to protect her, and so she broke off their relationship to protect him (and her and the rest of the crew for that matter), despite it breaking her heart. And she was vilified for it. So where's the sympathy for her?:-P

I smell trouble. This is the fourth time you mentioned Lyder blamed her what he never ever did. Honestly, he never did. Chris and I had the whole thing worked out. Lyder was going to have the realization that the "weakness" came from within. It was supposed to mirror the Anakin story, since the movie was releasing soon and we were all jazzed about it. The idea of Narruna being a trigger is just like Anakin and Padme, where she is the trigger that causes him to lose control. Lyder was desperate to find Narruna and was willing to cut a swath through a throusand people if he had to, so he could find her. But in the end, all he did was hurt himself and her. Thus is the nature of the dark side...which is why I f'ing LOVE how this all played out!

Narruna wrote:

Quick note to Zak, regarding Jo's statement, "Floozies are the answer."
Exactly! Why do you think she went for some random sabbacc dealer? She wasn't looking for a new love, she just wanted a quick pick-me-up. Why does everyone keep acting like she was trying to get this guy to marry her?

Cause I think everyone except Narruna could see that it was insensitive to have her rebound guy so close to the crew when a shipmate was just returning after having his face kicked in...and partly because I think some of us players have had chicks do this to us and it's bullshit

Narruna wrote:

Okay, to sum up: Lyder and Narruna were never meant to be together, despite their best efforts. It's not that either of them was a bad person, they just had completely separate destinies. Unfortunately, they were unwilling to admit it to themselves, which led to both of them making promises they couldn't keep, and therefore both felt betrayed. Everything that happened after the break-up was really just a series of very bad misunderstandings and misinterpretations, and two people not on their best behavior because of broken hearts. My hope in hashing this out is just to clear up misunderstandings between the players. Not that anyone is taking it personally or anything, but I don't see how the characters can ever come to terms with what happened if we can't. For THEIR sake we have to clear the air...lol.

I agree with the last half of this but the rest of it sounds to gritty and real! C'mon! Never meant to be!? Pssshhhh. Think if the story we could tell if they managed to come back some how and found themselves realizing what fools they had both been? There's a story! Seven years is a long time. Sure you could throw the whole "Buffy and Angel" angle at it, but that's lame in my opinion...er...unless you really don't want Narruna to go in that direction. And that's fine! But never meant to be? Paaah-leeease. They are perfect for each other. It's just that they both became idiots for a second, in a free fall of miscommunication and seriously intense circumstances. Overcoming that is what creates some of the greatest relationships there are! Letting it die and cutting ties is what makes it just another crappy story over a cup of coffee with a friend. Or rather, alcoholic drink with Jo. The rest I agree with

IT'S STAR WARS!!! There's no such thing as "Never Meant to Be"!!

Narruna wrote:

It just occurred to me what part of the player misunderstanding might be deriving from, and that's that you, Eric, weren't present for two of the three games in which Narruna's whole emotional breakdown played out, so you didn't get to see, as a player, the game leading up to her decision to have the fling, nor the game where she dealt with the fallout. I think you were working those nights or something. Anyway, you only saw the game where she was with the guy. In the game after that, she continued her downward slide and really hit rock bottom. It was Master Shar who finally snapped her out of it, and by the time Lyder came back she had pulled herself back together again. Of course certain people said she was acting like Sei during her breakdown, so I guess there was really no way for her to win. She was labeled a bitch if she didn't act like she was upset about the breakup, but then she was a crazy bitch if she showed how upset she really was. Not that I really wanted to roleplay a "Sei moment," but it was really what the character had to go through, if I was being honest to her. Anyway, my point is that obviously Lyder would not have been witness to any of this, so I can see how he would just see her with the guy and leap to conclusions. But I just realized that you didn't see any of it either, which is probably why there's a lot of player confusion and it looks to you like she (and I) just dismissed the whole relationship. Do you think?

Moooost likely, cause yeah I don't know about ANY of that hahaha! I wasn't present at all for those games. Still, I think it gave us a lot to work with

Okay, cool...looks like we're zeroing in on a resolution. Just a couple points I want to clarify:

"A few years hopping through space with your lover, of whom you will be marrying...then a month after the relationships disenchantment and Narruna is sitting on the lap of some guy in a casino."
Robert and I at one point sat down and calculated the exact amount of time that had transpired in-game by looking at the time we spent in each place as well as figuring out based on the book's formula how long we spent in hyperspace between locations. While it may seem like the crew was together for a few years because that's how long we played in real life, in-game really it was a much shorter time. Unfortunately, I can't seem to open the document on my mac to give specifics, but I remember being shocked that only a month or two had transpired before Narruna and Lyder got engaged, then a month while she was away, and then another month or two while all of the dark side stuff was going on. I'd be generous to say that their entire relationship really only lasted about half a year. I don't point that out to try to diminish what they felt, only to highlight the fact that it was a very hot-burning whirlwind romance, and that it probably progressed way too quickly. It's not really fair to paint it as a long-term stable relationship when that's not what it was. It was hot, it was intense, and it was passionate, but it was never stable and it wasn't long-term.

"he couldn't understand why Narruna would abandon him when he needed her most, when he was at his lowest, when he was most vulnerable."
I think Narruna WANTED to be there for him. The problem was, and I'm going to take away the word "blame," (maybe the blame came from Narruna on herself) that Lyder told her she was the catalyst. So for her to comfort him, it's like the alcohol comforting the alcoholic. It hurt her to see him like that, and she wanted to help, but she knew that she was not the right person to do it. It would have been playing with fire. He needed someone like Master Shar to help him, someone who wasn't going to stir up the feelings that got him into trouble in the first place. She didn't want to break up, but she knew she had to.

"Cause I think everyone except Narruna could see that it was insensitive to have her rebound guy so close to the crew when a shipmate was just returning after having his face kicked in.."
Okay, I'm probably belaboring a couple points here, but first, the crew that "saw how insensitive it was" is the same crew that was cheering her on while she was doing it; second, Lyder wasn't the only one who came out of the relationship bruised; and third, Lyder had a girl on his arm too, and Narruna didn't bring her guy around until after Lyder was showing off his date. So the insensitivity goes both ways.

Honestly, it doesn't really matter what misunderstandings the characters had, as long as there aren't misunderstandings between the players. For example, I know in the bar scene there were a lot of misinterpretations going on between the characters (for example, Narruna sees Lyder with girl and assumes he's hooking up--false--Lyder sees Narruna wave at him and thinks she's dismissing him--false--Narruna sees Lyder standing away from the group and thinks he doesn't want to talk to her--false--Lyder sees Narruna dancing with Becca and thinks it's a jab at him--false). That's fine that the characters read each little thing wrong and it snowballed into disaster. Like you said, that's where the good roleplaying comes in. Just as long as the players know what was really going on. That's what I think we're trying to clarify here. And really, I think that the point of us hashing this out again now is so no one has to sit through us doing it in-game...lol. I'd be perfectly happy to say that at some point over the last seven years Narruna and Lyder met up and talked all this out. It's now water under the bridge and time for a clean slate. I just don't think we can roleplay that if we don't feel it as players.

Okay, as for the "never meant to be" thing, I guess that's one thing we're not seeing eye to eye on because I really don't see how they can be together. And not because any of the BS that went down after the breakup, that could all be resolved I think. It's the reasons they broke up in the first place. Lyder was firmly on track to becoming a Jedi. Totally admirable. But I'm starting to think that Lyder and Narruna are THE reason why the Jedi came up with the rule about Jedi's not engaging in romances...haha. As evidenced by his brush with the dark side, Lyder really needs to focus on his training and not on an impulsive girl who (let's face it) knows how to get herself into trouble. And as for Narruna, her life's passion is to end slavery, or at least help who she can to escape that life. The Jedi made it clear early on that they weren't interested in helping her with that task. She's not about to abandon her calling to be a stay-at-home wife like Mrs. Shar. She needs to be out there finding her siblings and helping the enslaved, and not under the Jedi's guidelines, or inbetween running their missions for them while they do nothing to help her. Lyder is obligated to them, and believes in their philosophies, while Narruna disagrees with a lot of what they believe and wants to get out from under their thumb. So I'm not saying that to be mean or anything, it's just the way I see it. Their breakup wasn't due to being idiots for a second (the aftermath was, yes), but rather a mature acceptance of the reality of their situation. (Imagine if Anakin and Padme had had the strength to make that sacrifice--the history of the galaxy would have gone down a lot differently). It's not that I WANT to play it that way, that's just the way I see it if I'm being true to the character. Okay, and this is probably going to make you really mad, especially considering everything we've been talking about, but honestly ever since the game ended I imagined Narruna would fly around with Jo for a while, deal with his kid and her siblings, and then she'd start her underground railroad where she'd meet someone who was on the same page as her with his goals, and they could go about trying to make the galaxy a better place together. As long as Lyder is a Jedi I just don't see how he can be that guy. So...I'd like to hear your thoughts on how you see it working out between them. (I'm not saying that in a challenging way, just I'm curious because this is actually new territory)

FROM THE DESK OF JO'LUK

Okay, guys, calm down... you're talking about the comforts of alcohol like they're a bad thing. I don't make fun of the Force or dancing, so don't go insulting the power that makes me strong! It's hard to hear alcohol and alcoholics taking a beating in these posts and not say something.

Also, I wasn't cheering you on when I called Narruna's cell phone - I was screaming for my life as half the city was trying to hunt me down. In fact, I'm not even sure I knew about the Zeltron guy until the group smuggled me out of the city to that hidden local, and I saw some purple guy hanging out with Narruna. In fact, I was suspicious of the purple guy since so many strangers had tried to take me out already.

Well not to short change you, but I really didn't wanna type up another 6 pages of response tonight hehe So I'll just say this:

That all makes sense to me. I blame Chris for the girl on Lyder's arm.


One thing I enjoy about the Old Republic setting, is that it was more in tune with the Origins of the Jedi inspiration. Spiritual Warrior's on a mystical path. The temptations of a Jedi are magical in affect but not by nature: the lure of the Dark Side is evident in everyone. The canon of Star Wars as tried a thousand different flavors of this concept, going to far as to even call it "evil". But I subscribe, as a player, to the original concept of Yin and Yang. Light and Dark. Up and Down. Anyway I could finish this point but I feel a sermon coming on and I don't wanna do that to you!

My point is, I don't like the idea of Jedi being cloistered monks of abstinence and infallibility. Lyder wasn't prepared for what he went up against because he was much older than the starting age of a Jedi in training. But in the Old Republic, the practice of getting them while they were young was a little more flexible. So is their views on relationships.

Noami Sunrider was married to a Jedi. After his death, she herself became one. Not only became one, but became one of the greatest Jedi ever. In the novels, Luke and Mara manage to get married and live a good life together (until Mara dies). My favorite Jedi from the Old Republic, Jolee Bindo was even married once. Though she was tricked and seduced by the dark side...anyway. I know what point you are going to raise: yeah, but those were Jedi falling for Jedi.

Yes they were, but Lyder and Narruna didn't fall apart because of him being a Jedi and her being...well, whatever class she was. Scout? It fell apart because they didn't talk to each other. They protected themselves from each other. They just got hurt like couples do and they didn't fix it right. You could say they were on two different paths, but that doesn't hold water with me. Everything they did they did together. Every fight they had, they stood by each others side. I don't know where you would think Lyder would want to turn her into a Jedi house wife Hahahah!

As a player, the way I thought it was going to go down, was that the stint with the darkside would be the reset button for Lyder. It would be a way to get away from trying to be the Iconic Jedi and be more of the Compassionate Peaceful Warrior who happens to be a Jedi. I wanted to get back to his roots and take off the robes, put the swoop bike gear back on but keep the light saber clipped to his side. That was the plan anyway.

As it stands, I had planned on him meeting up with someone as well because I love the idea of this character being alarmed at the idea of falling in love again and him having to work through it. I see it as Lyder's final test in becoming a great Jedi Knight and a way to finally come to peace with himself and the Galaxy at large. I'm in the process of writing a seven part story that follows him each year, like taking snap shots to fill in the blanks.

But I am totally down with what you have here if that's the direction you wanna go

Look at that. I typed a few pages. Damn it.

Haha...I know, I need to stop typing too, so I'm going to try to be as brief as possible as well (good luck!)

Having slept on it, I think that the root of the problem isn't what he did or what she did in the past. The problem stems from something we only just now hit on, which is that the characters (and more importantly, the players) were not on the same page as far as the future of the relationship. You saw them as perfect for each other and meant to be and that eventually they'd get back together and live happily ever after. I saw them as being star-crossed lovers who despite all the love they had for each other were never meant to be together. And we both took it for granted that the other person saw it the same way we did. So that's why all this time you've been in the mindset that they weren't really broken up, that they'd just hit a bump in the road, and all Lyder needed to do was come to some sort of peace within himself and then the relationship would pick up good as new. And that's why you couldn't understand why I'd poo on everything by having Narruna basically cheat on Lyder and ruin what could have been a perfect happy ending, because you assumed that I felt like you did that they were eventually going to get back together. But I've been operating this whole time under the assumption that you felt like I did, that their relationship was never perfect or healthy, and that the end was inevitable. That's why I couldn't understand why it was such a big deal that Narruna would try to move on. There was nothing casual or nonchalant it, but it had to be done because they were so obviously, in my mind, never getting back together again. I thought they were broken up, you thought they were on a break. So now I can see how you would think it was insensitive of Narruna to try to move on from a relationship that Lyder didn't think was over yet, but hopefully you can see how it wasn't fair for Lyder to expect her to behave like they were getting back together when in her mind they weren't. It was done. But I want to emphasize that the relationship wasn't casually tossed aside, because that's the insinuation I get a lot and that's what winds up frustrating me. You brought up Angel and Buffy before, and I think in a way that's a perfect comparison because that's how I always saw what went down with Lyder and Narruna. Two people who love each other very much but make the incredibly difficult decision to be apart, and there's nothing nonchalant about it for either of them. The problem is that both Angel and Buffy saw it that way, whereas in our world only Buffy felt that way but Angel thought they could still work it out. Actually, I have a better comparison for it. If this was Smallville, I thought we were playing Clark and Lana, and you thought we were playing Clark and Lois. That's how we each roleplayed it, and that's where we got our wires crossed.

So anyway, I don't know about you, but for me that clears up a lot. I can see where you were coming from now, and hopefully you can see where I was coming from. I guess the question at this point is which path do they go down now, yours or mine? I guess that's where the next chapter starts.

Oh, I also wanted to say that I never meant to imply that Lyder wanted Narruna to be a Jedi housewife...lol. What I meant was that when I think of a Jedi marriage and who is making it work, I immediately think of Master Shar and his wife. And then I think, well, the reason it works for them is because Shar doesn't have to worry about her. She's safe at home with the kids and an army of Jedi around her. Would he be as calm and serene if one day Mrs. Shar was like, today I think I'm going to infiltrate a crimelord's headquarters and free all of his slaves. Charge!! Because that's basically what Narruna thinks about when she wakes up in the morning, not, oh Lyder got Trandoshan blood on his robes again, that silly goose, how will I ever get these stains out? That's not who she is. As strongly as she feels about Lyder, she shouldn't have to sacrifice her identity for him. Again, that's not that he expects her to do, but that's what she forsees herself having to do. Especially when putting herself in danger tempts him to the Dark Side, so the only way for them to be together is for her to always be safe. Maybe that's not the reality of the situation, but that's how she sees it.

Personally, I blame it all on the alcohol.